Varnas - A conversation
From: சமர்ப்பணம்
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To: Senthil Gounder, pvina@sify.com
Date: Aug 20, 2006 12:58 AM
Subject: Re: Fw :[Senthilraja\'s blog] Comment:
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Namaskaram for the trouble you have taken to enlighten me on many aspects of Hinduism.
The Bhagavat Gita was treated by all Hindus as their Holy Book. If you don't believe in every word of it, you are not to be called a Hindu, aren't you? The Book itself says that there is varnashra dharma whereby each individual is born into a caste which, as Arbindo wrote, has 'spiritual duties to discharge' - duties assigned to the caste.
We indeed had Varnasrama Dharma during the period of Krishna. But then the duty of each each Varna is to protect other varna. Kastriya's duty is to protect all other Varnas and ensure all their basic needs are met. He is supposed to die when something harm happens to other Varna. These are simplest of duties of a Kastriya.
The duty of the Brahmin is to pray and perform Yagna's for the entire welfare of humanity. He has to recite Vedas and preach Vedas and uphold Dharma in every form. A brahmin is not supposed to go greed behind money and has to lead the simplest form of life. He is not supposed to accumulate wealth. He is not supposed to think harm for even a single form of life. Thirukkal says it. Anthanar enbor aravor, Matrevvuirkkum senthanmai Poondozugalan. Lots more to add this.
The duty of the Vysya is to uphold the economy of the nation (which includes other Varnas) by trade and other means. And remember the concept of currency and money did not exist that time. This again is simple definition of the duties of Varnas.
Sudras. They have the duty to help all the above mentioned Varnas and primarily Agriculture. The service is mutual during Krishna's period.
Had it been so, Krishna a Yadhava, Kuchela a brahmin and all other his friends who actually represented different Varnas would not have got educated by a Single Guru – Sandipini together. Had this been the case Rama would never had embraced Guha. Had this been the case in Hindu Society then Valli a tribe would not have been mentioned marrying Muruga.
So Gita which says about Varnas also says that the duty of each Varna is to protect other Varnas. Its is not said in Geetha that a Varna has to suppress other. Do not blame Geetha for that. Today we find every Caste creating hatred against others for which we have to have a close look at history. Lets come to that later.
------------------------------
Arbindo, as quoted by you, says that one does not become a brahmin, or a kshatriya, or a vysa etc. by the mere fact of being born to a brahmin or a kshatriya etc. but by discharging the spiritual duties assigned to the caste he was born into. The deplorable and shameful punch is in the words "spiritual duties assigned to a caste and the indivdual has to discharge them". Why should he discharge them ? Who gave 'spiritual duties...etc'? God? Why should there be castes at all?
One has to discharge them in the interest and to protect other Varnas. Do u mean to say that whatever God created can alone find a place in this world ? Defintely Caste existed in a good perspective which we do not find in them today.
When every civilisation has fallen victim to Semetic aggressions its the Caste system which prevented our (Urs and Mine) identity. Today it may be irrelevant.
------------------------------
Why should a person be born into a caste at all? We are all born in the same process of coming out of our mothers wombs, aren't we? Why should some wombs bring out special children who will become brahmins by spiritually discharging the duties; and other wombs bring out ugly children who will become dalits to serve others by 'spiritually discharging their ugly duites'? Why, oh, why?
Its may be your theory to say Brahmins are special and Dalits are inferior. You have to answer.
We have to accept that Harijans did suffered at the hands of other Hindus and Hinduism is not the reason for it. The basic scriptures of Hinduism do not approve/ support discrimination.
Why should Nehru --> Indira --> Rajiv --> Sonia --> Rahul --> Priyanka continue to head Congress? What made people think George Bush S/o W Bush can head the country the way his father did... Why should Charles make it to the throne after Queen Victoria? Why should Stalin/ Jyothi Basu/ Fidel Castro himself possess the power for such long time.. Why should GK Vasan succeed Mooppanar and MK Stalin succeed Karunanidhi?
When u say Country has to be good and I will also be a reason for it then there is no problem. I am of such kind and what I mentioned above do not appear to be wrong. But when I say something has to happen only because of me and my deeds then you will start questioning all these...
Had world was formed twenty years ago then u and me might not have born in any caste. But thousand of genrations... Imagine and u will get the reason... When in just the next generation the son of our CM is queing to become the next CM.. I would say taking birth in a caste has happened just because innumerable number of years our society has crossed... Do u get the reason now...
None of them are ugly duties. All are spritual as mentioned. If agriculture is ugly then Harijan is ugly. If trading for society is Ugly then Vysya is ugly....
Have you ever heard the word Slave trade? Think of it... who introduced it?
------------------------------
The primary flaw is in the premise that there are castes; the next is in the discharge of spiritual duties etc.? The cancer has already begun; and Arbindo has nicely said that no it was not cancer; but later on became a cancer - 'degenerated'. A point you and so many others have taken pains to point out to ingormanuse like me and others. Thank God! it has 'degenerated' so that I am boldly writing in your page that there should be no castes. Imagine, if there were no such degeneration. I will have to address you Raja as 'samy' - an address that dalits use for brahmins!!!
Please read what qualities a Brahmin has to exhibit. Then say what name you will give to persons of such qualities. Today's Brahmins may not deserve to be called Saami. But they did by virtue of their character in the past.
And do you know, One of the qualities of Brahmin is to see God is all Human Being and creatures. So a Harijan is none other than Hari's another form. Brahmin also has to consider a Harijan Saami.. Read Advaita...
------------------------
Be plain: do you accept that birth decides our duties, that is, our occupations ? Dont say that a dalit can become a brahmin and a brahmin becomes a dalit. Why should there be divisions of labour at all initially? In ancient times, it worked, you may say. But how? Because the lower castes accepted their status; and other castes had found advantages. Dont go to west. Let us clean our houses first.
When some system says me at my birth that my duty is to protect others why not I accept it? I say there is no need for a Harijan to become a Brahmin and a Brahmin to become Harijan. Please ask Capitalist and Communists the question of Labour and Mudhalali... Hindu syatem do not have a Mudhalali, Thozilali system and concept. Zamindari and Ryotwari system was introduced by British and it started this system in our nation..
------------------------
Why should a person serive all the four upper castes merely because he is born into the community of 'avarnas' - avarnas are those who are outside the caste system itself.
I have answered the question of serving earlier.. We indeed have the concept of Varnas..And there are fours Varnas... But not upper caste(Varnas) and lower caste(Varnas).. I do not under stand this question itself.... What are the two types of Carbon? 1) Graphite and 2) Diamond... Because Diamond is referred with #2, does that mean that it is of low caste and Graphite is of High Caste... Jus for example.. nothing more..:-)
-----------------------
Why should he discharge his spiritual duties that is, of servicing others?
Every other Varna has also to do the same.
It is indeed true that the other Varnas failed to protect Sudras after foreign invasion started and expected Sudras continue to serve them. Come on we will change it... Let there be mutual serving as it was in ancient Hindu Society...
-------------------------
The question of degeneration etc. come later. First question first.
A vyasa, a valmiki, a bangaru adigalar or your own god - may not be brahims. But they are a few exceptions. But you want to take shelter under these exceptions. Face the larger picture of Hindu humanity and answer: why there are lower castes and why there are upper castes?
In that age these are not exceptions but examples.
Upper Castes - Land Lord , Lower Caste - Slaves. Land Lord - Whites, Slaves - Blacks... Do u get from where this stared? Land Lords (anyone who was ready to serve) are appointed by British. They survived Kajoling British and did the atrocities the British/ Western world committed to Blacks to Harijans.
--------------
Madurai Veeran is a chakkiliar - but who is worshipping him? Show me a brahmin who has his picture in his house?
My Kula Theivam is Mukkarumbur Ayyanar. My grand ma has great faith in our Village's Mariamman. I do agree we have very little examples like me... And its basically related to three Gunas (Characters)... More i will tell if u want...
--------------
Many exceptional individuals who lived exceptional lives are venerated after their deaths - which veneation may taper into a kind of temple worship. Eran Chairmansamy, Vallalar, Madurai Veeran, MGR (who has a temple) and even our Kushboo have their idols and people worship. We should not take them seriously till the brahmins take them seriously as their idols.
Hinduism have always reverred them as Gurus and not Gods. Much more things are inside this... We know whom we have to call Gurus and who are Gods.. Its appears u have read Geetha.. Did not you find Krishna mentioning about demi-gods etc.,? Please verify...
--------------
You may kindly note that there have been no brahmins who openly declared that their law giver Manu was wrong in denying education to dalits. There have been no brhamins who openly declalred that the Bhagvat Gita is wrong in giving divine sanction to dividing people in the name of castes and asksing them to 'spiritually discharge their duties assinged to their castes of births'.
Manu is a Kastriya and so is Krishna. Please quote where has these things been mentioned in Manu Script and Geetha? I am interested in knowing... If so,Manu has also said that what ever he had said is applicable for my period and the society has the right to change it depending on situations...Manu gives the right to change his own rulings.. You want me to say this statement of Manu to be wrong? Similarly Krishna have said whatever I need to say I have said.. You think and decide what you need to do...
-----------------
I am arguing my case in the forum called karuthu. And asked the brahmins there to say that Manu was wrong. But no one repsonded.
The entire Hindu society has to unite as it was before the foreign invaders.. I have answered for the question on Manu..Your serviing dalit
Thirupathi
I Pray to Vishnu in my every day Vishnu Sahasranama and chant that, Keep the Sudra comfart and happy (Sudrasya Sukamavapnuyath...). In pusuit of doing good to Harijans (Sudras - One who doesn't bear the harm done to others).
Ramadas
Mailed-By: gmail.com
To: Senthil Gounder
Date: Aug 20, 2006 12:58 AM
Subject: Re: Fw :[Senthilraja\'s blog] Comment:
Reply Reply to all Forward Print Add sender to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled?
Namaskaram for the trouble you have taken to enlighten me on many aspects of Hinduism.
The Bhagavat Gita was treated by all Hindus as their Holy Book. If you don't believe in every word of it, you are not to be called a Hindu, aren't you? The Book itself says that there is varnashra dharma whereby each individual is born into a caste which, as Arbindo wrote, has 'spiritual duties to discharge' - duties assigned to the caste.
We indeed had Varnasrama Dharma during the period of Krishna. But then the duty of each each Varna is to protect other varna. Kastriya's duty is to protect all other Varnas and ensure all their basic needs are met. He is supposed to die when something harm happens to other Varna. These are simplest of duties of a Kastriya.
The duty of the Brahmin is to pray and perform Yagna's for the entire welfare of humanity. He has to recite Vedas and preach Vedas and uphold Dharma in every form. A brahmin is not supposed to go greed behind money and has to lead the simplest form of life. He is not supposed to accumulate wealth. He is not supposed to think harm for even a single form of life. Thirukkal says it. Anthanar enbor aravor, Matrevvuirkkum senthanmai Poondozugalan. Lots more to add this.
The duty of the Vysya is to uphold the economy of the nation (which includes other Varnas) by trade and other means. And remember the concept of currency and money did not exist that time. This again is simple definition of the duties of Varnas.
Sudras. They have the duty to help all the above mentioned Varnas and primarily Agriculture. The service is mutual during Krishna's period.
Had it been so, Krishna a Yadhava, Kuchela a brahmin and all other his friends who actually represented different Varnas would not have got educated by a Single Guru – Sandipini together. Had this been the case Rama would never had embraced Guha. Had this been the case in Hindu Society then Valli a tribe would not have been mentioned marrying Muruga.
So Gita which says about Varnas also says that the duty of each Varna is to protect other Varnas. Its is not said in Geetha that a Varna has to suppress other. Do not blame Geetha for that. Today we find every Caste creating hatred against others for which we have to have a close look at history. Lets come to that later.
------------------------------
Arbindo, as quoted by you, says that one does not become a brahmin, or a kshatriya, or a vysa etc. by the mere fact of being born to a brahmin or a kshatriya etc. but by discharging the spiritual duties assigned to the caste he was born into. The deplorable and shameful punch is in the words "spiritual duties assigned to a caste and the indivdual has to discharge them". Why should he discharge them ? Who gave 'spiritual duties...etc'? God? Why should there be castes at all?
One has to discharge them in the interest and to protect other Varnas. Do u mean to say that whatever God created can alone find a place in this world ? Defintely Caste existed in a good perspective which we do not find in them today.
When every civilisation has fallen victim to Semetic aggressions its the Caste system which prevented our (Urs and Mine) identity. Today it may be irrelevant.
------------------------------
Why should a person be born into a caste at all? We are all born in the same process of coming out of our mothers wombs, aren't we? Why should some wombs bring out special children who will become brahmins by spiritually discharging the duties; and other wombs bring out ugly children who will become dalits to serve others by 'spiritually discharging their ugly duites'? Why, oh, why?
Its may be your theory to say Brahmins are special and Dalits are inferior. You have to answer.
We have to accept that Harijans did suffered at the hands of other Hindus and Hinduism is not the reason for it. The basic scriptures of Hinduism do not approve/ support discrimination.
Why should Nehru --> Indira --> Rajiv --> Sonia --> Rahul --> Priyanka continue to head Congress? What made people think George Bush S/o W Bush can head the country the way his father did... Why should Charles make it to the throne after Queen Victoria? Why should Stalin/ Jyothi Basu/ Fidel Castro himself possess the power for such long time.. Why should GK Vasan succeed Mooppanar and MK Stalin succeed Karunanidhi?
When u say Country has to be good and I will also be a reason for it then there is no problem. I am of such kind and what I mentioned above do not appear to be wrong. But when I say something has to happen only because of me and my deeds then you will start questioning all these...
Had world was formed twenty years ago then u and me might not have born in any caste. But thousand of genrations... Imagine and u will get the reason... When in just the next generation the son of our CM is queing to become the next CM.. I would say taking birth in a caste has happened just because innumerable number of years our society has crossed... Do u get the reason now...
None of them are ugly duties. All are spritual as mentioned. If agriculture is ugly then Harijan is ugly. If trading for society is Ugly then Vysya is ugly....
Have you ever heard the word Slave trade? Think of it... who introduced it?
------------------------------
The primary flaw is in the premise that there are castes; the next is in the discharge of spiritual duties etc.? The cancer has already begun; and Arbindo has nicely said that no it was not cancer; but later on became a cancer - 'degenerated'. A point you and so many others have taken pains to point out to ingormanuse like me and others. Thank God! it has 'degenerated' so that I am boldly writing in your page that there should be no castes. Imagine, if there were no such degeneration. I will have to address you Raja as 'samy' - an address that dalits use for brahmins!!!
Please read what qualities a Brahmin has to exhibit. Then say what name you will give to persons of such qualities. Today's Brahmins may not deserve to be called Saami. But they did by virtue of their character in the past.
And do you know, One of the qualities of Brahmin is to see God is all Human Being and creatures. So a Harijan is none other than Hari's another form. Brahmin also has to consider a Harijan Saami.. Read Advaita...
------------------------
Be plain: do you accept that birth decides our duties, that is, our occupations ? Dont say that a dalit can become a brahmin and a brahmin becomes a dalit. Why should there be divisions of labour at all initially? In ancient times, it worked, you may say. But how? Because the lower castes accepted their status; and other castes had found advantages. Dont go to west. Let us clean our houses first.
When some system says me at my birth that my duty is to protect others why not I accept it? I say there is no need for a Harijan to become a Brahmin and a Brahmin to become Harijan. Please ask Capitalist and Communists the question of Labour and Mudhalali... Hindu syatem do not have a Mudhalali, Thozilali system and concept. Zamindari and Ryotwari system was introduced by British and it started this system in our nation..
------------------------
Why should a person serive all the four upper castes merely because he is born into the community of 'avarnas' - avarnas are those who are outside the caste system itself.
I have answered the question of serving earlier.. We indeed have the concept of Varnas..And there are fours Varnas... But not upper caste(Varnas) and lower caste(Varnas).. I do not under stand this question itself.... What are the two types of Carbon? 1) Graphite and 2) Diamond... Because Diamond is referred with #2, does that mean that it is of low caste and Graphite is of High Caste... Jus for example.. nothing more..:-)
-----------------------
Why should he discharge his spiritual duties that is, of servicing others?
Every other Varna has also to do the same.
It is indeed true that the other Varnas failed to protect Sudras after foreign invasion started and expected Sudras continue to serve them. Come on we will change it... Let there be mutual serving as it was in ancient Hindu Society...
-------------------------
The question of degeneration etc. come later. First question first.
A vyasa, a valmiki, a bangaru adigalar or your own god - may not be brahims. But they are a few exceptions. But you want to take shelter under these exceptions. Face the larger picture of Hindu humanity and answer: why there are lower castes and why there are upper castes?
In that age these are not exceptions but examples.
Upper Castes - Land Lord , Lower Caste - Slaves. Land Lord - Whites, Slaves - Blacks... Do u get from where this stared? Land Lords (anyone who was ready to serve) are appointed by British. They survived Kajoling British and did the atrocities the British/ Western world committed to Blacks to Harijans.
--------------
Madurai Veeran is a chakkiliar - but who is worshipping him? Show me a brahmin who has his picture in his house?
My Kula Theivam is Mukkarumbur Ayyanar. My grand ma has great faith in our Village's Mariamman. I do agree we have very little examples like me... And its basically related to three Gunas (Characters)... More i will tell if u want...
--------------
Many exceptional individuals who lived exceptional lives are venerated after their deaths - which veneation may taper into a kind of temple worship. Eran Chairmansamy, Vallalar, Madurai Veeran, MGR (who has a temple) and even our Kushboo have their idols and people worship. We should not take them seriously till the brahmins take them seriously as their idols.
Hinduism have always reverred them as Gurus and not Gods. Much more things are inside this... We know whom we have to call Gurus and who are Gods.. Its appears u have read Geetha.. Did not you find Krishna mentioning about demi-gods etc.,? Please verify...
--------------
You may kindly note that there have been no brahmins who openly declared that their law giver Manu was wrong in denying education to dalits. There have been no brhamins who openly declalred that the Bhagvat Gita is wrong in giving divine sanction to dividing people in the name of castes and asksing them to 'spiritually discharge their duties assinged to their castes of births'.
Manu is a Kastriya and so is Krishna. Please quote where has these things been mentioned in Manu Script and Geetha? I am interested in knowing... If so,Manu has also said that what ever he had said is applicable for my period and the society has the right to change it depending on situations...Manu gives the right to change his own rulings.. You want me to say this statement of Manu to be wrong? Similarly Krishna have said whatever I need to say I have said.. You think and decide what you need to do...
-----------------
I am arguing my case in the forum called karuthu. And asked the brahmins there to say that Manu was wrong. But no one repsonded.
The entire Hindu society has to unite as it was before the foreign invaders.. I have answered for the question on Manu..Your serviing dalit
Thirupathi
I Pray to Vishnu in my every day Vishnu Sahasranama and chant that, Keep the Sudra comfart and happy (Sudrasya Sukamavapnuyath...). In pusuit of doing good to Harijans (Sudras - One who doesn't bear the harm done to others).
Ramadas
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