சிவகாசிக்காக... For Sivakasi and Cracker Industry...

(22:08:16) karth83: vanakam
(22:08:22) amachu: வணக்கம்..
(22:08:40) karth83: mukiya seidhigal
(22:08:50) karth83: vaasipadhu tamil kirukan;)
(22:09:17) amachu: ;)
(22:09:45) karth83: then
(22:09:51) amachu: sollutaa..
(22:10:01) karth83: nee sollu
(22:10:37) amachu: தீபாவளிக்கு பட்டாசு வாங்குடா..
(22:10:51) amachu: 1000 ரூபாய்க்கு....
(22:11:08) karth83: no no waste of money & child labours
(22:11:16) karth83: r working in that so...
(22:11:17) amachu: o child labor
(22:11:30) amachu: missionariies and NGOs mis campaign
(22:11:37) amachu: now do u know
(22:11:52) karth83: wat?
(22:11:55) amachu: 1) Viruthunagar district is 100% literate
(22:12:07) karth83: is it gr8
(22:12:16) amachu: and 2) Sivakasi comes under Virudhunagar district
(22:12:42) amachu: Now tell how come a town with 100% literacy have child labour?
(22:13:03) karth83: then that is false news
(22:13:29) amachu: and Sivakasi is the 0% unemployement town in Tamilnadu
(22:13:43) amachu: or 100% employment town
(22:13:48) karth83: hmmm
(22:14:47) amachu: and bursting crackers on one day out of 365 days will not affect the biological/ ecological balance
(22:15:46) amachu: its the bike/ car/ bus/ truck/ lorry/ polythene/ plastics that the so claiming educated world is using for its comfart thats polluting the world
(22:15:53) karth83: but i ll get veizhing if i burst crackers:)
(22:16:41) amachu: and the cracker workers get the majority of their income due to the sale of crackers during deepavali
(22:17:03) amachu: so we help our own men, and encourage their business...
(22:17:13) karth83: hmmm
(22:17:51) amachu: so buy crackers, the entire sivakasi town depends on us... and our purchase...
(22:18:14) amachu: pass this to every1..
(22:18:23) karth83: lll see.. i ll in bang moslty for deepaavli
(22:18:36) amachu: i will prepare a ppt on this..
(22:18:43) amachu: forward them to all u know
(22:18:45) amachu: ..
(22:18:47) karth83: gr8:)

Terrorism - A dialogue

Major Terrorist attacks in India.

August 3rd, 2006 -Senthil Raja

In reference to the recent Mumbai Bombings, i have listed out major terrorist attacks on India, all sponsored by Pakistan ISI and carried over with the help of local Muslims in India.

March 1993: Islamic terrorists carried out multiple bombings in Bombay, killing 257 innocent Indian citizens and wounding more than 1,500.

December 2001: Islamic terrorists attacked India’s Parliament in New Delhi, leaving 14 innocent Indian citizens dead.

September 2002: Islamic terrorists attacked Akshardham temple in Gujarat, killing 31 innocent Indian citizens.

March 2003: Islamic terrorists exploded a bomb on a passenger train in Bombay, killing 10 innocent Indian citizens.

August 2003: Two taxis packed with explosives were blown up near Gateway of India in Mumbai, by Islamic Terrorists, killing 52 innocent Indian citizens and wounding more than 100.

October 2005: A day before Diwali, Islamic terrorists exploded three bombs in Delhi’s busy markets killing 62 innocent Indian citizens and wounding hundreds.

March 2006: Islamic terrorists conducted two bombings at a train station and a temple in the holy city of Varanasi killing 20 innocent Indian citizens.

July 11, 2006: Islamic terrorists triggered eight bombings on Mumbai trains killing more than 200 innocent Indian citizens and injuring hundreds more.

We have to again rethink, Do our patience still has any worth?

Entry Filed under: Terrorism, India

38 Comments Add your own

• 1. Hiren August 6th, 2006 at 8:30 pm

  Good summary. Seeing the attackes all at once is enough to give you a heart attack. God knows when the nonsense will stop permanantly.

• 2. dimple August 16th, 2006 at 5:03 pm

  nice summaries .this is simething that has to be stoped as soon as possible. it is very good to know that the government of india is helping the people who were injured in these attacks or the people who lost their loveable ones in these attacks to recover

• 3. Thirupathi August 19th, 2006 at 2:48 pm

  You write, “…sponsored by ISI and carried over (out) with the help of local muslims of India”.

  And ask us “to rethink”, and raise a question at the end: “Do our patience has still has any worth?”

  Rather, you should ask, ‘why do the local muslims help ISI carry out their blasts?

  Do you think that the local muslims are all bad; or, some sections only?

  I think only the fringe sections of the Indian muslims, that too, the youth.

  Even assuming that a majority help ISI, then too, it begs the question: Why?

  Such question is crucial; and unless we face it, we will never take pains to find answers for it.

  This is not to say that the support to ISI should be condoned. But only to say that even if you do not condone; and go hammers and tongs against it, yet our bulltet-for-bullet strategy cannot work in civilian life. The muslims will continue to back the ISI activities; and we will continue to lose our brethren in bomb blasts.

  Yes, we should rethink on these lines; but definitely, not simultaneously throwing up our hands in despair, as you have done, ‘our patience is running out!’

  Don’t take it as an out-and-out political or terrorist-related or military problem. It is a social problem too.

  UK is asking such question: have we gone wrong? are our muslims not assimilated in our society as yet? If no, why so?

  You would do better if you read British newspappers and journals to know how that society is confronting this problem - the same problem of muslim youths throwing grenades and planting bombs!

• 4. psenthilraja August 20th, 2006 at 12:49 am

  You analyse for any number of times.. the answer would be the following….

  The muslims terrorist doesnt want our muslims to integrate with the hindus… They want to convert all hindus to islam… If its not possible, they want to kill all those who refuse.. If killing all is not possible, they want to atleast terrorize hindus…

  And the very fact that pakistan & bangladesh is sponsoring terrorism is to destabilize & weaken india, so that they can annex it…

• 5. Vina August 20th, 2006 at 8:31 pm

  I only ask you whether bullet-for-bullet is your only solution? whether eliminating or driving all muslims from India?

• 6. psenthilraja August 21st, 2006 at 12:23 am

  I am clear to the core… People who support the enemy country, people who support the terrorists, people who provide all sort of help to the terrorists, are bound to be killed or driven away from the country, for the welfare of the nation.

  Religion doesnt come here. But since, most of the terrorist attackes are done by muslims, and supported by muslims in india, its necessary to analyse why they are doing this.. and its not unclear that their ideology drives them…

  I am not saying that all the muslims support terrorists… but the few muslim terrorists make a great impact in the name of islam. Also, when you see history of many muslim terrorists, they would have earned a very good name in their locality.. The local people get shocked, after seeing him as terrorists.
  In this condition, there’s no clear idea, whether a muslim is a terrorist, or a potential terrorist, or an ordinary muslim.

  Not only the muslims… the communists are equally dangerous as the muslims terrorist.. this was evident from the 1962 china war… Still many of the communist say that india attacked china, which is not the case… That’s their patriotism.. they are also need to driven away from the country or killed.

  There is only one problem for their anti-social activities… Its their ideological affinity.. that cannot be changed by any means…

• 7. Thirupati August 21st, 2006 at 1:41 pm

  ‘I am not saying that all the Muslims support terrorists’ - you write.

  I heaved a sigh of relief on reading this broad-minded statement. I also hope you are not intent on driving all Muslims out of this country. Because, for you, it is too late to do so. We have come to a point where we should accept a plural society where people, who follow different religions and different customs, have become the integral part of the society; and everyone is entitled, equally, to be called ‘Indian’ , and to enjoy the rights and duties of Indian democracy as Indian citizens.

  Thank you for your broad-mindedness. Now, about my own views on terrorism.

  Terrorism, in the context of J&K only, is religion-centric. That it has spread its tentacles to other parts of the country is a later development. The terrorism, that we see happening in North Eastern States, MP, Maharastra-Chattisgarh-AP borders, are not related to any one’s religion. They have sprung out of certain social factors.

  Terrorists of the first variety commit their acts, with some specific objectives: to get J&K back to Pakistan; or, as a separate country with 100% Muslim population. They quite know that some sporadic acts of terrorism, here and there, periodically, wont bring Indian government to its kneels. Then, what is their motive? The motive is to provoke the Indian government to retaliate through its armed or para-military forces: more provocation leads to more deployment of forces; more forces will make the state as a Police state where citizens fear to live in every minute. And, in the cross fires between the forces and the terrorists, definitely some civilians will die. To highlight the civilian casualties; and make the citizens turn their wrath against Indian government. Slowly and steadily, we have fallen into their trap; and the alienation of the people in J&K is becoming a reality much to the delight of the terrorists and their supporters. Further, the economy will flounder, thanks to zero development as everything will be put on backburner due to terrorism and counter-terrorism. To devastate the state and to make the people feel ‘alienated’ is the aim of the terrorists. The success they have achieved and the help the Indian government has unwittingly rendered by falling into trap - is substantial, so much so that Pakistan is boldly saying that a referendum, taken to know the will of the people there, will decide the future of J&K. They, and all those terrorists, know the results of the referendum will go against us.

  The same strategy is now applied everywhere by the Islamists terrorists operating in many Indian States. Their aim was to make persons like Senthilraja write that the patience is running out; and the Muslims should be taught a lesson. This is exactly what the terrorists need: to make the non-Muslims to turn against all Muslims who are under suspect in the eyes of normal citizens like Senthilraja, thereby, slowly and gradually, winning all Muslims to their side; and making them feel ‘alienated’ from the mainstream society.

  You may point out here that terrorism in Punjab was put down with the guns of KPS Gill or J.Reberio. You may hope that now too, it can be put down. As I have already noted above, terrorists’’ basic support base is people. If the mass of people in a locality support the terrorists, no guns can win against them. LTTE is supported by the local Tamil population en masse. If they lose that support base, it will make the job of annihilation of LTTE easier for Srilankan Government.

  So also in India. In Punjab, the Khalistani movement lacked mass support. In fact, except a vere few unemployed youths,, no Sikh supported it. For lack of support from the people, the Police could put down terrorism there. In case there were massive support, the story would have tragically different for India. We must thank the Sikh people for always remaining patriotic and never have fallen prey to Khalistani propaganda. You should also note that in Nepal, the terrorists have won, solely because of the 100% support of the people there.

  Terrorists don’t fear for their lives. The LeT terrorists who entered Indian Parliament knew quite well that they would be hounded and shot dead; and, they themselves were suicide bombers. After that heinous act at Parliament, and their deaths, have the terrorists stopped? No. The bomb blasts continued. Therefore, counter-attack by Government forces won’t act as a deterrent in the minds of any terrorist.

  This is not to say that Government should fold up their hands and watch patiently the terrorists planting bombs or attacking the innocent people of India. Rather, the counter-terrorism and pre-emptive acts by the Government should go on as vigorously as possible. But always with the awareness that these are temporary solutions only. Larger aim of the Government should be - to stop people like you using menacing or intemperate language that can incite Non-Muslims. And to win over the minority and Muslims before they are won over by the terrorists. Government should make Muslims aware that it is acting only against a few misguided Muslims who fall for the propaganda of the terrorists and help them carry out their attacks in India. Government should go all out in dissemination of positive information among Muslims and make them feel that they are as much wanted as any Non-Muslim. IT IS A QUESTION OF WINNING THE PEOPLE FOR INDIA. IT IS A RACE BETWEEN THE TERRORISTS AND THE GOVERNMENT FOR PEOPLE.

  But you can say, “It is appeasement of Muslims”. But, for me, at the moment, it is the one that is valid, for want of other ideas in my dull mind.

  Do you have any other ideas?

• 8. psenthilraja August 21st, 2006 at 6:14 pm

  Thirupathi,
  I will once again repeat myself.
  We need not drive any muslim out of india, unless, they are loyal to this country. However, we should not hesitate to deport any one, who has acted against india’s interest.

  The Hindus had no problems in accepting one more god, the “Allah”. But the problem is with the orthodox & intolerant attitudes of those fundamentalists in the muslim community. so no question of driving out any ordinary muslims who are willing to live with the hindus.

  Regarding the terrorism in North East, there were many intelligence anlysts who had pointed out that its the handiwork of the missionaries to create a christian nation from india. May be this news would not come in the regular news media and so persons like you, will be misguided by the unjust propogations carried by them.

  The terrorism of Maoist is partly a social problem, but mainly due to the influenze of the ISI & other enemies of india.

  Regarding kashmir, I want to remind you that there are other communities living in that land, like Hindus, Buddhists, christians. The terrorist may not kill Muslims, but they targetted the Hindus & Buddhists. U very well know the plight of 5 laksh kashmiri pandits, now living as refugees in their own country.
  So the army has to be deployed to protect those peoples. The fact that the people of kashmir is supporting the terrorists is only a part of the truth. Because, its not the people who are supporting, but they are forced to support. Any one opposing would not be alive the next moment. This can be evident from the fact that there are numerous police informers among the muslim community, and a lot of muslims were also killed by the terrorist for supporting india.
  But the indian secular media, would expose this truth.

  Finally, onus of showing the loyalty resides with the muslims. Hindus have practically proved that they have no problems with muslims, as it is evident from the muslim populations of India, pakistan & bangladesh.
  So its the muslims who have to raise against the terrorists. If they can protest for Denmark cartoons in lakhs, they can also protest for the terrorist bomb attacks. But their mere silence, is made use by the terrorists.

  Its they who have to win over the trust of the hindus and not the vice versa.. because, the Hindus are the most affected people.

• 9. psenthilraja August 21st, 2006 at 6:16 pm

  The problem now is with the congress government, who has been ruling since independence.
  You cant separate these appeasement policies with the terrorist actvities. Only this appeasement policies had separated the muslims from the mainstream. And they will do in future also, because, they want to catch bloc vote of the muslims.

• 10. Sriramadas August 21st, 2006 at 7:55 pm

  I only ask you whether bullet-for-bullet is your only solution? whether eliminating or driving all muslims from India?

  Vina: Bullet for Bullet is defenitely not the solution. Eye-for an eye is rubbish. But when some one plucks your eye and you fighting back to get that eye back is your right. If he who plucked is not giving your eye back u have the right to pluck his eye and replace your eye with that.

• 11. Sriramadas August 21st, 2006 at 7:59 pm

  And Vina, its not revenge… Revenge is not accepted… Revenge something like… X kills Y’s parents.. then Y killing X’s parents… This is not at all acceptable…

  But X deserves to be punished… Who will do it?

• 12. Sriramadas August 22nd, 2006 at 12:33 am

  Tirupathi,

  Gud.. your thoughts are appreciated… We are indeed plural and has to be integrated… Everyone is Indeed an Indian… Every one definitely has to enjoy rights and has duties towards Indian Democracy… India is Secular… Or Our Government is Secular.. “Government is secular” in a Democracy means people living in it are Secular… After all democracy is by the people and for the people… Only if people are Secular such a plurality can exist… People having their own faith and accepting/ respecting others faith…. There should be a way shown in their own faith which says that you have to respect other’s faith…So that faith has to be Secular or inclusive… Can I now use religion for faith…. Here it becomes synonymous…. So Secular nation needs Secular religion(s)…. People follow religions…And they are the one who from the government… Now enlist all religions and think, which religion is pluralistic…. Hinduism? Islam? Christianity? Let me add Communism also to this as faith.. (Our constitution itself accepts Sikhs, Jains and Buddhists are Hindus.. so lets exclude them here) Which religion is Secular/ Plural? Hinduism? Islam? Christianity? I will proceed further…

  I always wondered why some one who have 100% support of people could not contest and win elections… Look, India shares border at the top with two neighbours… 1) Pakisthan 2) China… Part of J&K is with Pakisthan.. are you aware another part is with China… There is also a part ceded to China by Pakisthan… Pakisthan is Islamic… China is Communist… Both are anti-India… LeT, Hijbul Mujahideen are Islamic… Maoists are Communists… LeT acts in Mumbai, J&K etc., Maoists acts in Bengal, MP, AP etc., Can’t u see we are now cornered all around… Nepal is in between India and China… To conquer Nepal by War is not posssible in Civilised world…But by conquering Nepal, China comes much closer to Indian territary.. Can u visualize the danger… Maosits are funded, supported by China… Jus like LeT and Mujahideens are funded by Pakisthan… Maoists sitting in Nepal means India alert… Indirectly its China buddy…

  Now before answering futher, I would like to hear why are the blasts in London? Why was Twin towers blasted? Why in Indonesia’s Bali suferred attack from terrorists…? They are not in Indian soil…

  A kid sees something.. It wants it.. If its acceptable the father buys it for it.. Now the kid sees some thing else.. It asks.. Its not possible and not needed… The kid cries… The soft-corner the father has, stretches to get what the kid wanted…. So the kid gets what it wanted and smiles.. The father also smiles, since his kid smiles… But at the back-end it creates a strong impression in the minds of the of the kid… If the father doesn’t get something cry or act like crying… He will get what ever is needed… After growing big, the kid will tell… See I have grown big enough..I know to take care of myself… No need of your help anymore… divide the property and give my share I will take care of myself….

  Do u get what I am reffering here? I am not saying that this will happen.. this is what happened and led to India’s partition in 1947… Now the same thing has again started to happen.. Learn from the mistake of our past…

• 13. Sriramadas August 22nd, 2006 at 7:43 am

  One doubt if anyone could clarify, Israel invaded Lebanon… Pakisthan invaded Kargil… And to the Muslims of India, I think India should be the mother land … I saw in Jama Masjid of Delhi recently the Muslims (Ofcourse Indian) walking over Israel’s flag… Why not on Pakistan’s flag when Pakistan invaded India? Where is your Loyalty my dear Muslim brothers? or To whom is your loyalty?

• 14. Sriramadas August 22nd, 2006 at 7:54 am

  Have your heard of Khilafat movement? British ruled our nation (of course the nation of Muslims also)… We all fought against Bristish…
  First world war ended… Turkey or the Ottoman empire was divided and dis-mantled… So, till then Indian Muslims, who knew that British is ruling our nation didnot come out in protest of British rule…
  All of a sudden when Turkey, was dis mantled… these Muslims came out to the streets… against British…

  It may be past… But has the sychology of Muslims changed? I name it “Extra territorial Loyalty”.. Which is most hindering factor for India’s security…

• 15. Sriramadas August 22nd, 2006 at 8:04 am

  Its beacuse of this Extra territorial Loyalty, that Local Muslims support terrorism…Go to the core…This alone is the reason… This extra territorial loyalty is equally applicable to Christians and Communists…

  Ask any of your Muslim, Christian or Communist friend to tell ten things proud about India…

  I have seen most Christian beleive without British, Whatever in India exists today would not have come…

  I have seen most Muslim believe without the Mughal rule, India would have perished…

  And communists will say, without USSR India is worthless…

  Can you get where their loyalty is?

• 16. Sriramadas August 22nd, 2006 at 8:28 am

  And we have a new breed among our own Hindu society which has begun to show its loyalty towards US… Anything in US is good.. Anything of India is bad… And to add all to the woes.. We have the problem of Landlord V Peasants problem in Bihar, Jharkand…Killing is a habit for these groups mutually…
  then the Dalit backed hugely by foreign funded Missinaries.. To those who are claiming themselves to be Dalit and acting on the advice of missionaries…

  I would like to point out what Ambedkar had to say when he embraced Buddism…

  This is what he meant,

  People ask me why I embrace Buddism and Why not Chriatianity or Islam… If I embrace Chritianity it adds strength to British forces.. If I embrace Islam, it strengthens someone who before British was doing the same thing British is doing today..

  Above all Nation is Important.. Converting to Christianity/ Islam shifts the loyalty beyond border… I will not ask my followers to convert to Islam or Christianity simply for this reason…

  So he converted to Buddism, indeed as an alternate to Hinduism… it finds it root in India… So no point of external loyalty…

  Mind same Ambedkar, the father of our Constitution, had included Buddism, Sikhism and Jainism all to be considered as Hindus by the Constitution..

  Today we are here to show Ambedkar that the persecution which he faced will not be meted out any other Harijan… It indeed continues in several places even now…

  But there is definitely a huge change….

• 17. Sriramadas August 22nd, 2006 at 8:39 am

  Please replace the word Dalit by few Dalit groups in above mentioned comment..

• 18. Sriramadas August 22nd, 2006 at 10:32 am

  ஒரு வாலிபன், அவனுக்கும் அவன் பழகற இன்னொருத்தனுக்கும் பிரச்சனைன்னா.. அது ரெண்டு பேர்ல யார் மேலயும் தப்பிருக்கலாம்…

  அந்த இன்னொரு பையன் கூட தப்பு செஞ்சிருக்கலாம்…

  ஆனா, இந்த பையன் பழகற எல்லார் கூடவும் தகராறுன்னா… நிச்சயமா.. இந்த பையன் மேல தான தப்பு… மாற வேண்டியது யாரு?

  இந்த பையன்னு நான் சொன்னது - இஸ்லாத்தை… இந்தியால மட்டும் தான் இந்த ப்ரச்சனைன்னா இந்துக்கள் கூட காரணமா இருக்கலாம்..

  ஆனா, இருக்கற எல்லா நாட்லயும் ப்ரச்சனைன்னா… புரியுதா யார் காரணம் எல்லாத்துக்கும் ?

• 19. Thirupathi August 23rd, 2006 at 5:22 pm

  This is addressed to Sriramdass in response to the Tamil message by Sriramdas..

  I am sorry I could not type in Tamil.

  It is a commonplace to say that muslims are troublemakers wherever they go to live in. They want the whole world to be islamised, or, in their words, ‘conquer the world for Islam.” This is their agenda.

  But in our country, almost all muslims are Indians. Generations ago, they were Hindus; now muslims. They were converted, By which means, fair or foul, is outside the debate here.

  The point is, they are as much Indians as Sriramdass, or Senthilraja, or me, are. All of them are not living here to execute the agenda mentioned above. They know they have to live in a society with fellow Indians following different faiths, sharing everything with them.

  Now, tell Sri Sriramdass, who are the muslims (paiyans) you are pointing to, as trouble-makers or with the aforesasid agenda to execute?

  What muslims living in other countries do or dont do, is the sole concern of the countries concerned. Not for us. So, Sri Sriramdass may speak to us only in the context of our country and its muslims.

• 20. Thirupathi August 23rd, 2006 at 6:07 pm

  “Bullet for Bullet is defenitely not the solution. Eye-for an eye is rubbish. But when some one plucks your eye and you fighting back to get that eye back is your right. If he who plucked is not giving your eye back u have the right to pluck his eye and replace your eye with that. ” Sri Sri Ramdass writes.

  Both will go blind!

• 21. sriramadas August 23rd, 2006 at 7:55 pm

  But,

  When the consipacy is at International level how to consider it at national level…

  I said replace your eye… That too only is the other is unwilling to give back the eye he plucked from u…

  Then tell me the way to get my eye..

  I will address further on converted Muslims later… I agree they were Hindus…. But do they agree…
  Regards…

• 22. psenthilraja August 23rd, 2006 at 9:54 pm

  Thirupathi..

  When only a handful of people had been doing Untouchability, discrimination. But the whole Hinduism is maligned.
  And you are not ready to forget them.

  Only a particular section follows sati.. Yet, the whole Hinduism is maligned.

  The Manu smriti is written only for a particular period of time and its not the holy book of the hindus, and its not followed by any one here. Yet the whole Hinduism is maligned.

  But, to say the terrorists are muslims are not tolerated and seen as maligning the Muslims community.
  Why so much affection towards the muslim community, while ignoring the thousands of lives of the hindus lost to the muslim terrorists bombs & bullets.

  Why godhra is blown out of proportion, while the sikh massacre, Marad massacre, Kashmir genocide are suppressed.

  There are numerous muslims transforming in to terrorist. Even to say the truth that majority of terrorists are muslims is not tolerated and you are telling that islam is not to be maligned.

  This is the contradiction I found out from your arguments, and please dont take it as personal attack.

  I will once again repeat my position.
  [b]We are NOT against the muslims like Abdul kalam, bismillah khan, etc.. We are against those terrorists in the muslim community, and those who provide indirect support to those terrorists. And those terrorists mix up with ordinary muslims, and the common muslim doesnt act against them.
  You have take in to consideration, the fact that the most of the terrorist attacks on the Hindus are carried by the muslims. [/b]

• 23. psenthilraja August 23rd, 2006 at 10:01 pm

  I will clear your questions in simple terms.

  Suppose you are living in multi-cultural area, and the people live with their co-community members as pockets. Suppose, a few people from a particular colony regularly come and attack your house, and vanish.
  You were sure, from where they come from, but unable to identify who?

  What will you do? Wont you search each and every house in that particular colony? Or will you let them continue their vandalism so as not to disturb the whole colony.

  Dont say that you will defend your house. Because, that’s not possible, as you dont know when they will attack again. Wont you feel, that eliminating the attackers would be only lasting solution.

• 24. Thirupathi August 24th, 2006 at 10:26 am

  “Then tell me the way to get my eye.. ” - Sri Sriramdass asks.

  It is for you to tell others. You said, go and pluck the eyes of those who have plucked yours. That is, eye-for-eye.

  You ask me what else can one do, when his eye is plucked.

  You should answer the question.

  Try one for us. If not, reiterated your eye-for-eye remedy.

• 25. Thirupathi August 24th, 2006 at 10:34 am

  Senthilraja Saab!

  We have to defend ourselves when our enemy attacks.

  Where from have you got the idea that I am telling others to show other cheek when your enemy slaps theirs?

  My sole question to both of you is the same:

  Is eye-for-eye the only way out to save ourselves from our enemy?

  Analyse and tell us.

  If you feel that revenge is the only way out, ‘ pluck the eye of your enemy who has pluck yours’, dont beat about the bush! and say ‘yes’

  I am not here to pronounce a judgement; but am here to know how others view this problem of muslims vs non-muslims.

• 26. Thirupathi August 24th, 2006 at 10:40 am

  ‘When only a handful of people had been doing Untouchability, discrimination. But the whole Hinduism is maligned.” - Sri Sriramdass writes.

  ‘had been doing’, is a past pefect continuous tense.

  No. this should be written is present perfect continuous tense also: has been doing.

  If you dont accept that, you are not living in the present.

  Untouchability, both in its virulent and surreptitious forms, do exist. The two-tumbler system being practised in some villages in Tamilnadu and Andhra Pradesh, and other forms (which are hidden and practized by the so-called ‘decent’ people) are present-day realities.

  I can write long, enuemrating these bittler realilties; but I think, a short adumbration is sufficient for more learned people like you and Senthilraja ayya avargal.

• 27. psenthilraja August 24th, 2006 at 3:31 pm

  When an enemy attacks us, and proclaims “i am ready for war if you retaliate”, then we have to teach them in their own language.. Otherwise, we would be termed only as cowards, as is now done by the world.
  I want to be a brave, like netaji..

  Only braves can bring in peace, and not the bogus peace lovers. Sometimes, even violence is to be used to bring in the peace.

  Self defence is for defending ourselves at unexpected situations. But, when the enemy is known, the best defence would be to strike at the root of the problem.

• 28. psenthilraja August 24th, 2006 at 3:35 pm

  Let me use the correct tense.

  >>”When only a handful of people has been doing Untouchability, discrimination. But the whole Hinduism is maligned.
  And you are not ready to forget them. ”
  

  Now answer me those questions..

• 29. Thirupathi August 24th, 2006 at 6:25 pm

  “When an enemy attacks us, and proclaims “i am ready for war if you retaliate”, then we have to teach them in their own language.. Otherwise, we would be termed only as cowards, as is now done by the world.
  I want to be a brave, like netaji.”

  Only braves can bring in peace, and not the bogus peace lovers. Sometimes, even violence is to be used to bring in the peace.

  Self defence is for defending ourselves at unexpected situations. But, when the enemy is known, the best defence would be to strike at the root of the problem.” - you write

  In any matter, there are two sides: extremists and moderates. We find in our freedom struggle the both - Netaji and otherrs forming the extremists; Gandhi and others forming the moderates.

  Among Muslims, too, there are these two groups. Our busines is with moderates only.

  Which side one should take, is one’s subjectve decision.

• 30. Thirupathi August 24th, 2006 at 6:41 pm

  ” would like to point out what Ambedkar had to say when he embraced Buddism…

  This is what he meant,

  People ask me why I embrace Buddism and Why not Chriatianity or Islam… If I embrace Chritianity it adds strength to British forces.. If I embrace Islam, it strengthens someone who before British was doing the same thing British is doing today..

  Above all Nation is Important.. Converting to Christianity/ Islam shifts the loyalty beyond border… I will not ask my followers to convert to Islam or Christianity simply for this reason…

  So he converted to Buddism, indeed as an alternate to Hinduism… it finds it root in India… So no point of external loyalty…

  Mind same Ambedkar, the father of our Constitution, had included Buddism, Sikhism and Jainism all to be considered as Hindus by the Constitution..”

  Sri Sriramdass has written the above.

  There is a fallacy here, namely calling religions ‘foreign’. One follows a religion or accepts a religion as his own for life, not on the consideration that the religion was born in his own country; so, he should accept it; and, another religion was born in a foreign country, so he should reject it. If one thinks on these lines, then, many tribals should now be practizing the religion of their forefathers like cannibalism. And, all Indians should not choose their religion they want; but should accept only Hinduism, or Buddhism or Jainism only because these are indigenous religions.

  Islam and Christianity may have originated on foreign lands; but they have now become world relgiions. Hinduis has its followers in so many countries. In that way, it is also a world religion.

  Before quoting anyone, we must examine what is said. Shakespeare, too, has committed grammatical and factual blunders; such blunders cannot be washed and made clean merely because a great writer like him has committed. So also, here, to accept Ambedkar in toto is intellecutal lethargy. That means, we dont want to think for ourselves.

  Time has well past when we could say that Islam and Christianity were foreign religions. Today, millions of Indians follow these faiths; and therefore, such tags as ‘foreign’ are outdated and used to serve narrow partisan ends.

  English is foreign or Indian? That will drag me to another interesting topic. But I shall stop for today now.

• 31. psenthilraja August 25th, 2006 at 12:25 pm

  Thirupathi..
  I think in terms of equality.. I know how christianity has spread to the whole world, slaughtering most of the native south americans by spaniards, North american red indians by britishers & french…

  And as everyone know, even today, the christianity is spread through unethical means, by the lure of money, power etc..

  The greatest danger, being the destruction of the native culture.. Due to the christian cultural invasion, the native cultures of the north east tribes has been destroyed, by the imposition of foreign culture…

  The next greatest danger being the loyalty shown towards the foreign land, than that of ours.

  As a true indian, and a true son of this soil, i think, its my duty on my part to uphold & protect the culture of this land.

  In vatican, no hindu or muslim can preach his religion… In russia, the christians cant even tolerate the presence of mere 15000 krishna devotees, that too in moscow.. They attacked these krishna devotees, and demolished the only krishna temple in Moscow.

  In Arabia, even to bring small idol of ganesha by the indian workers, for personal worship is not tolerated & hence banned .. similarly in Iran, & other muslim countries…

  When the foreign religion gives us the same equality they wish, then we can grant them… But that’s not the case… Even in america & canada, which are highly civilised and have a rule of law, the christians are more intolerant… They spread hatred about hinduism through school text books, in media & in all other means…

  Even in Rome, the italians wont allow protestant churches in its soil because they feel its a danger to their national security.

  Similarly in Germany and other countries..
  And in Arabia, there is no room for shia muslims, while in Iran there is no room for sunni muslims.

  In pakistan & bangladesh, the Ahmedijans, the followers of sufis, are termed as non-muslims, and are butchered day by day just like the hindus.

  I cant do anything with the person who conveniently oversees these realities.. As Nehru said after 1962 war, ” I have been living in a world of my own imagination”.

  Arguments can lead nowhere beyond certain limit,..
  One has to realise themselves on their own.. I leave it to you to have your own opinion as long as i wish… I wish there be no more arguments over this..

  good bye…

• 32. Thirupathi August 25th, 2006 at 2:11 pm

  The argument should continue here; otherwise, you will be trying to escape with some fallacies.

  First, clarify you write the above, as an Indian or as a Hindu?

  Then, I shall comment upon your whole message.

• 33. Sriramadas August 25th, 2006 at 7:57 pm

  Not eye for an eye. Please read fully. I had defined what revenge is.

  British took away the freedom and we fought for it and got it. Had we made them Slave in turn then its revenge. We never did that.

  But fighting to get back our freedom (eye) is not revenge. Thats exactly what I meant here.

  Thanks for mis-understanding.

  Hindu is Indian and Indian is Hindu. Hindu in the mouth of British twisted to India.

  Hidusthan in British version became India.

  Hindu and Indian are one and the same. Our nation is Hindusthan and those who live in it are Hindus irrespective of their faith and religion.

• 34. Sriramadas August 25th, 2006 at 8:01 pm

  Look, out of ten Kurals on not telling lie, Valluvar says where u can tell lie…

  And one person took that particular section alone where he justifies telling lie, and justified telling lies..

  Thats exactly what u r doing…

  “Bullet for Bullet is defenitely not the solution. Eye-for an eye is rubbish. But when some one plucks your eye and you fighting back to get that eye back is your right. If he who plucked is not giving your eye back u have the right to pluck his eye and replace your eye with that.”

  Above is exactly what I had mentioned. Please read it as a whole. It will make sense.

• 35. Sriramadas August 25th, 2006 at 8:08 pm

  Hindus in foreign land do not involve in terrorism in the name of Hinduism. They do not challenge the demoratic set up existing there.

  But Christians and Muslims do. So buddy, the tags are not outdated.

  The problem is with Islam and Christianity..

• 36. Sriramadas August 25th, 2006 at 8:09 pm

  I am speaking on realities and you are wandering over words…

• 37. psenthilraja August 25th, 2006 at 8:12 pm

  And as everyone know, even today, the christianity is spread through unethical means, by the lure of money, power etc..

  The greatest danger, being the destruction of the native culture.. Due to the christian cultural invasion, the native cultures of the north east tribes has been destroyed, by the imposition of foreign culture…

  The next greatest danger being the loyalty shown towards the foreign land, than that of ours.

  As a true indian, and a true son of this soil, i think, its my duty on my part to uphold & protect the culture of this land.

  In vatican, no hindu or muslim can preach his religion… In russia, the christians cant even tolerate the presence of mere 15000 krishna devotees, that too in moscow.. They attacked these krishna devotees, and demolished the only krishna temple in Moscow.

  In Arabia, even to bring small idol of ganesha by the indian workers, for personal worship is not tolerated & hence banned .. similarly in Iran, & other muslim countries…
  Even in Rome, the italians wont allow protestant churches in its soil because they feel its a danger to their national security.

  Similarly in Germany and other countries..
  And in Arabia, there is no room for shia muslims, while in Iran there is no room for sunni muslims.

  In pakistan & bangladesh, the Ahmedijans, the followers of sufis, are termed as non-muslims, and are butchered day by day just like the hindus.
  ——————————————-

  You have conveniently overlooked the above facts. Better understand the above and then comment. And tell me the reason, why they are still happening today.
  Why dont they think about secularism, humanity, equality of all religions etc.
  And could you understand the basic difference between hinduism and other semitic & foreign religions.

• 38. psenthilraja August 25th, 2006 at 8:14 pm

  And dont say about the wishes & rights of the people to follow any religion.. The northeastern tribal people doesnt wish to become christians… Its the missionaries, who forced the foreign culture on those tribals.

• 39. Sriramadas August 27th, 2006 at 8:27 am

  Let me conclude,

  We need to create a strong non-government network across the nation to fight this cancer of terrorism. This is exactly what our President Abdul Kalam demanded on the eve of Independence.

  கொலையிற் கொடியாரை வேந்தொருத்தல் பைங்கூழ்
  களை கட்டதனொடு நேர்

  This should be policy of the the Government against terrorists. No mercy in whatever form it may be should be allowed. No justifications should be allowed to be given for these in-human activities.

  Government should say bold, Look Muslims, You are not seperate. You are one among us. You can eat, work and live as any other citizen of this lives in this nation. You will not be discriminated against. Do not consider your self as a seperate entity and demand special rights. Because you are one and the same as any other citizens.

  If u think as seperate entities, we have already made a provision for that in the name of Pakistan. Please go there.

  Brave men do this way. Unfortunately we do not have such men in our Government.

Varnas - A conversation

From: சமர்ப்பணம்
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To: Senthil Gounder , pvina@sify.com
Date: Aug 20, 2006 12:58 AM
Subject: Re: Fw :[Senthilraja\'s blog] Comment:
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Namaskaram for the trouble you have taken to enlighten me on many aspects of Hinduism.
The Bhagavat Gita was treated by all Hindus as their Holy Book. If you don't believe in every word of it, you are not to be called a Hindu, aren't you? The Book itself says that there is varnashra dharma whereby each individual is born into a caste which, as Arbindo wrote, has 'spiritual duties to discharge' - duties assigned to the caste.

We indeed had Varnasrama Dharma during the period of Krishna. But then the duty of each each Varna is to protect other varna. Kastriya's duty is to protect all other Varnas and ensure all their basic needs are met. He is supposed to die when something harm happens to other Varna. These are simplest of duties of a Kastriya.
The duty of the Brahmin is to pray and perform Yagna's for the entire welfare of humanity. He has to recite Vedas and preach Vedas and uphold Dharma in every form. A brahmin is not supposed to go greed behind money and has to lead the simplest form of life. He is not supposed to accumulate wealth. He is not supposed to think harm for even a single form of life. Thirukkal says it. Anthanar enbor aravor, Matrevvuirkkum senthanmai Poondozugalan. Lots more to add this.
The duty of the Vysya is to uphold the economy of the nation (which includes other Varnas) by trade and other means. And remember the concept of currency and money did not exist that time. This again is simple definition of the duties of Varnas.
Sudras. They have the duty to help all the above mentioned Varnas and primarily Agriculture. The service is mutual during Krishna's period.
Had it been so, Krishna a Yadhava, Kuchela a brahmin and all other his friends who actually represented different Varnas would not have got educated by a Single Guru – Sandipini together. Had this been the case Rama would never had embraced Guha. Had this been the case in Hindu Society then Valli a tribe would not have been mentioned marrying Muruga.
So Gita which says about Varnas also says that the duty of each Varna is to protect other Varnas. Its is not said in Geetha that a Varna has to suppress other. Do not blame Geetha for that. Today we find every Caste creating hatred against others for which we have to have a close look at history. Lets come to that later.
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Arbindo, as quoted by you, says that one does not become a brahmin, or a kshatriya, or a vysa etc. by the mere fact of being born to a brahmin or a kshatriya etc. but by discharging the spiritual duties assigned to the caste he was born into. The deplorable and shameful punch is in the words "spiritual duties assigned to a caste and the indivdual has to discharge them". Why should he discharge them ? Who gave 'spiritual duties...etc'? God? Why should there be castes at all?

One has to discharge them in the interest and to protect other Varnas. Do u mean to say that whatever God created can alone find a place in this world ? Defintely Caste existed in a good perspective which we do not find in them today.

When every civilisation has fallen victim to Semetic aggressions its the Caste system which prevented our (Urs and Mine) identity. Today it may be irrelevant.
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Why should a person be born into a caste at all? We are all born in the same process of coming out of our mothers wombs, aren't we? Why should some wombs bring out special children who will become brahmins by spiritually discharging the duties; and other wombs bring out ugly children who will become dalits to serve others by 'spiritually discharging their ugly duites'? Why, oh, why?

Its may be your theory to say Brahmins are special and Dalits are inferior. You have to answer.
We have to accept that Harijans did suffered at the hands of other Hindus and Hinduism is not the reason for it. The basic scriptures of Hinduism do not approve/ support discrimination.
Why should Nehru --> Indira --> Rajiv --> Sonia --> Rahul --> Priyanka continue to head Congress? What made people think George Bush S/o W Bush can head the country the way his father did... Why should Charles make it to the throne after Queen Victoria? Why should Stalin/ Jyothi Basu/ Fidel Castro himself possess the power for such long time.. Why should GK Vasan succeed Mooppanar and MK Stalin succeed Karunanidhi?
When u say Country has to be good and I will also be a reason for it then there is no problem. I am of such kind and what I mentioned above do not appear to be wrong. But when I say something has to happen only because of me and my deeds then you will start questioning all these...
Had world was formed twenty years ago then u and me might not have born in any caste. But thousand of genrations... Imagine and u will get the reason... When in just the next generation the son of our CM is queing to become the next CM.. I would say taking birth in a caste has happened just because innumerable number of years our society has crossed... Do u get the reason now...
None of them are ugly duties. All are spritual as mentioned. If agriculture is ugly then Harijan is ugly. If trading for society is Ugly then Vysya is ugly....
Have you ever heard the word Slave trade? Think of it... who introduced it?
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The primary flaw is in the premise that there are castes; the next is in the discharge of spiritual duties etc.? The cancer has already begun; and Arbindo has nicely said that no it was not cancer; but later on became a cancer - 'degenerated'. A point you and so many others have taken pains to point out to ingormanuse like me and others. Thank God! it has 'degenerated' so that I am boldly writing in your page that there should be no castes. Imagine, if there were no such degeneration. I will have to address you Raja as 'samy' - an address that dalits use for brahmins!!!

Please read what qualities a Brahmin has to exhibit. Then say what name you will give to persons of such qualities. Today's Brahmins may not deserve to be called Saami. But they did by virtue of their character in the past.
And do you know, One of the qualities of Brahmin is to see God is all Human Being and creatures. So a Harijan is none other than Hari's another form. Brahmin also has to consider a Harijan Saami.. Read Advaita...
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Be plain: do you accept that birth decides our duties, that is, our occupations ? Dont say that a dalit can become a brahmin and a brahmin becomes a dalit. Why should there be divisions of labour at all initially? In ancient times, it worked, you may say. But how? Because the lower castes accepted their status; and other castes had found advantages. Dont go to west. Let us clean our houses first.

When some system says me at my birth that my duty is to protect others why not I accept it? I say there is no need for a Harijan to become a Brahmin and a Brahmin to become Harijan. Please ask Capitalist and Communists the question of Labour and Mudhalali... Hindu syatem do not have a Mudhalali, Thozilali system and concept. Zamindari and Ryotwari system was introduced by British and it started this system in our nation..
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Why should a person serive all the four upper castes merely because he is born into the community of 'avarnas' - avarnas are those who are outside the caste system itself.

I have answered the question of serving earlier.. We indeed have the concept of Varnas..And there are fours Varnas... But not upper caste(Varnas) and lower caste(Varnas).. I do not under stand this question itself.... What are the two types of Carbon? 1) Graphite and 2) Diamond... Because Diamond is referred with #2, does that mean that it is of low caste and Graphite is of High Caste... Jus for example.. nothing more..:-)
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Why should he discharge his spiritual duties that is, of servicing others?

Every other Varna has also to do the same.
It is indeed true that the other Varnas failed to protect Sudras after foreign invasion started and expected Sudras continue to serve them. Come on we will change it... Let there be mutual serving as it was in ancient Hindu Society...
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The question of degeneration etc. come later. First question first.
A vyasa, a valmiki, a bangaru adigalar or your own god - may not be brahims. But they are a few exceptions. But you want to take shelter under these exceptions. Face the larger picture of Hindu humanity and answer: why there are lower castes and why there are upper castes?

In that age these are not exceptions but examples.
Upper Castes - Land Lord , Lower Caste - Slaves. Land Lord - Whites, Slaves - Blacks... Do u get from where this stared? Land Lords (anyone who was ready to serve) are appointed by British. They survived Kajoling British and did the atrocities the British/ Western world committed to Blacks to Harijans.
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Madurai Veeran is a chakkiliar - but who is worshipping him? Show me a brahmin who has his picture in his house?

My Kula Theivam is Mukkarumbur Ayyanar. My grand ma has great faith in our Village's Mariamman. I do agree we have very little examples like me... And its basically related to three Gunas (Characters)... More i will tell if u want...
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Many exceptional individuals who lived exceptional lives are venerated after their deaths - which veneation may taper into a kind of temple worship. Eran Chairmansamy, Vallalar, Madurai Veeran, MGR (who has a temple) and even our Kushboo have their idols and people worship. We should not take them seriously till the brahmins take them seriously as their idols.

Hinduism have always reverred them as Gurus and not Gods. Much more things are inside this... We know whom we have to call Gurus and who are Gods.. Its appears u have read Geetha.. Did not you find Krishna mentioning about demi-gods etc.,? Please verify...
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You may kindly note that there have been no brahmins who openly declared that their law giver Manu was wrong in denying education to dalits. There have been no brhamins who openly declalred that the Bhagvat Gita is wrong in giving divine sanction to dividing people in the name of castes and asksing them to 'spiritually discharge their duties assinged to their castes of births'.

Manu is a Kastriya and so is Krishna. Please quote where has these things been mentioned in Manu Script and Geetha? I am interested in knowing... If so,Manu has also said that what ever he had said is applicable for my period and the society has the right to change it depending on situations...Manu gives the right to change his own rulings.. You want me to say this statement of Manu to be wrong? Similarly Krishna have said whatever I need to say I have said.. You think and decide what you need to do...
-----------------
I am arguing my case in the forum called karuthu. And asked the brahmins there to say that Manu was wrong. But no one repsonded.

The entire Hindu society has to unite as it was before the foreign invaders.. I have answered for the question on Manu..Your serviing dalit

Thirupathi

I Pray to Vishnu in my every day Vishnu Sahasranama and chant that, Keep the Sudra comfart and happy (Sudrasya Sukamavapnuyath...). In pusuit of doing good to Harijans (Sudras - One who doesn't bear the harm done to others).

Ramadas